Inclusive Culture on Hybrid Teams
Guest Speaker Dr. Stefanie K. JohnsonIn this episode of WiseTalk, Sue Bethanis hosts Dr. Stefanie K. Johnson, Associate Professor of Management at the Leeds School of Business, University of Colorado Boulder. She holds a Ph.D. from Rice University and is particularly interested in the effects of unconscious biases in the evaluation of women and minorities to find ways to mitigate those biases. She is the author of Inclusify: The Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams, an award-winning and groundbreaking guide, outlining the transformative leadership skill of tomorrow—one that can make it possible to build truly diverse and inclusive teams which value employees’ needs to belong while being themselves.
Dr. Johnson brings bias to light with an engaging and humorous approach to advanced scientific research, which has earned her numerous accolades and invitations to present her work at meetings around the world, including the White House for a 2016 summit on diversity in corporate America on National Equal Pay Day, and the 2016 Harvard Negotiation and Leadership Conference. She has published over 70 journal articles and book chapters in outlets such as Harvard Business Review, Journal of Applied Psychology, and The Academy of Management Journal. She has extensive consulting experience and has created and delivered leadership-development training with an emphasis on evidence-based practice. In recognition of her unique research, Dr. Johnson has been awarded nearly three million dollars in external funding to study leadership and create leadership development programs aimed at increasing safety. Media outlets featuring her work include The Economist, Newsweek, Time, and CNN.
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INTERVIEW SUMMARY AND KEY TAKEAWAYS
Hybrid and remote work is here to stay. Moving forward many teams are going to remain virtual, and we need to find new creative ways to promote connection and inclusivity. Stefanie offers a new term – Inclusify, which emphasizes the need to create a sense of belonging while allowing people to show up as their authentic selves. It’s time to go beyond diversity and find ways to elevate different voices and broaden our sense of work culture. As leaders, we need to create a culture of valued differences and learn to integrate those differences and perspectives. Whether on zoom or in person, emphasizing and placing value on other people’s viewpoints, voices, and differences will have a huge impact on inclusivity and connection.
Stefanie believes that being virtual may feel less connected but can provide a better ground for equality and inclusivity if used effectively. Zoom meetings have created a more equal space in which inclusive behaviors can easily be applied. A few key take-aways and effective methods for increasing inclusivity that Stefanie offers:
- Send out questions prior to a meeting so you can curate the discussion around responses. The goal is to check in with each person during the meeting, make sure everyone has a chance to contribute, and encourage people to voice disagreements. (15:47)
- Advocate for others and make sure everyone with a seat at the table has had a chance to speak and their voices are heard. This can be done by politely redirecting the conversation back to someone who was cut off or talked over, or by checking in with anyone who has yet to contribute. Whether a leader or not, these gestures model to others how to create a more inclusive environment. (20:47)
- Record virtual meetings and play them back later to monitor for inclusiveness. Review how well current inclusive strategies are working or notice who did not get to contribute and follow up with them. (17:59)
Regarding connection, Stefanie believes Covid has brought us to a point where we need to get creative and find new ways to connect. Whether it’s fostering digital activities or finding new ways to check-in, we are at a point where we can redefine the work world and move into a new era more focused on inclusivity. There is no single solution that will work for every team but opening discussions to ask questions and find ways everyone would prefer to connect is a great place to start. You can find many resources on Stefanie’s site where she has assessments, card decks, activities, and more for ways to increase inclusivity.
FAVORITE QUOTES
“Diversity without inclusion is just going to lead to turnover.” (1:16)
“Inclusifying is a conscious and ongoing action to help people experience a sense of belonging, while still encouraging them to be their unique and authentic self, so they can fully show up and participate and be valued for who they are.” (5:30)
“You hire people who fit your culture, and then you reinforce that fit all the time because you want to build a tight-knit group, right?… And that’s great, except you’re missing out on a large segment of the population that you could be recruiting. And you’ve created massive blind spots on your team because everyone’s similar… Yes, you can have a strong culture, but part of that culture has to be valued differently. If you’re a leader who doesn’t value difference, that’s the thing to start focusing on.” (9:12)
RESOURCES
Dr. Stefanie K. Johnson:
Website | LinkedIn
Book: Inclusify: The Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Sue Bethanis 0:00
Hello everyone to WiseTalk. This Mariposa’s monthly podcast. We provide perspectives on leadership. Today we’re excited to welcome Dr. Stefanie Johnson, thank you for being here, who is in Venezuela right now. That’s very cool. She’s an Assistant Professor of Management at the University of Colorado Boulder, and it’s the Leeds School of Business that she’s at. She’s authored many articles and book chapters in both academic and applied outlets. Her first book Inclusify, the Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams, reveals the unexpected ways that well intentioned leaders undermine their teams, explains how to also recognize the myths and misperceptions that drive these behaviors, and provides practical strategies to become an inclusifier. She has presented her work at over 170 meetings around the world, including at the White House for the 2016 summit on diversity in corporate America, on the National Equal Pay Day and the 2016 Harvard Negotiation and Leadership Conference. She’s also a frequent contributor to HBR, Forbes and Bloomberg. So thanks again, so much for being here. Really appreciate it. We’ve done this for 15-16 years now. So every month so I always ask the first question, which is, why did you decide to write the book, I read your bio, that’s nice. But I want to know, like what inspired you?
Stefanie Johnson 1:16
So I study leadership, and specifically what leaders can do to create diverse workplaces. And so everything from selection practices, to mentoring, all the way up to like corporate visions, setting goals, strategy. And I have the opportunity to work with some of the best companies in the world, and probably around 2016, around that Equal Pay Day event at the White House, I was really starting to pick up energy in corporate America to invest in diversity. And so companies are like “what do we do?” And so I have lots of solutions. You can remove names from resumes, recruit this way, have diverse slate for your board searches. And many of them were doing this and then we kind of saw all this, I guess it was unexpected results of some of those companies are doing all the right things and it was taking off and they were showing great return on investment and their stock prices were going up. And other companies it was the opposite. They had increased turnover, more conflict, just wasn’t working out. And so after they get there, you have to actually continue investing in half of this equation has been around the idea of inclusion. And at the time, that wasn’t the thing. And so I started doing research on like, well, what’s differentiating and found part of the answers is diversity without inclusion is just going to lead to turnover. Or forced inclusion results in all these types of outcomes. And so to communicate this to a broad audience, I wanted to put it in paper so people could read it, pick it up, get an idea. And then I’ll tell you the real reason is I am obsessed with pop management books. I read every single one. I love them. Even, I read them as like a high school student and I don’t really read fiction, so I read a lot of nonfiction and I just love pop business books in my life dream was to write pop business books.
Sue Bethanis 3:09
Well, you must have like a billion in your office.
Stefanie Johnson 3:12
I did. I got rid of all of them when I did this move. And so other than giving books to people, which I think is a nice time to, I donated a lot, everything.
Sue Bethanis 3:21
Very cool. I mean, there’s a lot of things you could write about leadership, what prompted you in terms of the passion for diversity and inclusion? Because obviously there’s a shift now because we’re looking more at belonging and engagement. What was your, what really grabbed you about it?
Stefanie Johnson 3:37
Bad data. First I consider myself diverse. A human can’t really be diverse, but I’m an underrepresented person. I’m like a first student, my parents didn’t go to college, I’m a female, Mexican American, not your typical business professor, I’d say. So some of these topics really resonate with me, like it makes a lot of sense to me how there’s not an equal playing field and how there’s privilege and advantages and how belonging is a thing and how when you’re faking it all the time to fit in, you’re not contributing 100% of your mental energy. So I think that definitely contributed but really, it was just I’m trying to study leadership and what leaders can do to be effective and how we view leaders and there’s these gaps, always, doesn’t matter what study you do. what industry, there’s always a difference usually by gender because there’s just typically historically more women than there are any one minority or personal color group. So I’m trying to predict something, I’m trying to predict what makes effective leadership so I can better train leaders of tomorrow. And then you know, be assertive, you want to assert your vision and unless you’re a woman and then being assertive. So I’m like, Okay, what is going on here, I just need to figure this gender thing out. And again, this is I mean, this is like 2000. And so I can get back to my say leadership. And I just like haven’t really cracked that nut yet. But that’s a really fun, it’s just like, if you want to be accurate about your data representation, you have to show if there’s differences, and you can’t make a compelling case, when it’s like, everything I just told you, it’s the opposite. If you’re, if you happen to be a woman or LGBTQIA, or a person with disability, this is the theory that leadership are written for
Sue Bethanis 5:19
Right, right. Right, exactly. So I want to get into the the actual title of your book because you’ve coined it and it’s, you know, it’s not diversifying. It’s not including, so how are you defining inclusify?
Stefanie Johnson 5:30
Yeah so, it’s supposed to signal or make you feel like it’s an action, like, including people makes you feel like, well, you included me in this zoom conversation, because you sent me a link, but am I speaking? Am I able to contribute? Am I able to give my thoughts and perspectives people don’t really think about that second part as including. Including just seems like well, I let you come in, which is really more like allowing people to have a seat at the table. But yeah, that’s not really that great, honestly. So this will signify that inclusifying is a conscious and ongoing action to help people experience a sense of belonging, while still encouraging them to be their unique and authentic self, so they can fully show up and participate and be valued for who they are. The other reason is, I feel like when I talked about increasing diversity for so many years, that increased diversity, people were not that keen on that term or that idea, there’s a lot of backlash around that. When you say diversifying, I think people think about their portfolio, and then you understand why diversify makes you more robust. And in fact, the same thing, I think, with your company, if you have greater diversity, you’re going to be more resilient change, are able to attract new customers and new talent. And it’s the same it’s like if you inclusify, but it actually has a benefit, just like it would to your life.
Sue Bethanis 6:50
So I’m kind of curious about when you wrote this book, when did you start writing and when did you finish it in terms of how it kind of collided with COVID?
Stefanie Johnson 6:58
It was fully done before the first COVID case
Sue Bethanis 7:02
I’m actually curious, because I think it’s even more potent, or more important. Now, I want to talk a little bit about your original intent, like what were you thinking in terms of the main tenets of inclusify, and then I want to then apply it to what’s going on right now.
Stefanie Johnson 7:15
I think it’s more relevant today, you know, following George Floyd’s murder, and just like the increase in corporate attention to diversity issues, none of which is in the book, there’s Black Lives Matter the sort of the older or like more longitudinal movements, but it doesn’t include this most recent string of events which has really mobilize people. And it doesn’t talk about COVID at all. So I think the principles are the same. And it’s just this idea that, but what I find is that most leaders are really well intentioned, when it comes to creating a more inclusive workforce. They’re just not quite getting right. And so it’s like a very coaching mindset of like, so here’s what you’re doing well, you’re really great at building belonging on your team. And you’re maybe not recognizing that not everyone’s the same. So you need to foster this dissenting viewpoints and bring out people’s unique identities and because realistically, there’s people on your team who don’t belong, who feel like they don’t belong, you just see what it’s look like they do. And I think that’s true today, too. It just looks a little bit different. There’s leaders who are really good at highlighting people’s unique identities, but don’t always create that cohesive team feeling where you have like a root or core of belonging. This is the implementation of how that leader pivots, I think looks a little bit different in a virtual remote world?
Sue Bethanis 8:28
I think that intentionality is not a problem. I mean, I think that most people, especially now want people to feel belonging, I use the word connection a lot, the paper that I just penned was about making sure that we stay close and connected to our peace. So I don’t think anyone’s going to argue with, you know, even the commodity, I don’t think anyone’s gonna say we shouldn’t want people to be feel belonging, and we shouldn’t want people to feel connected. So given that, but how do we help people do that? Oh, to some of your advice, in terms of making sure that leaders are focusing on that in terms of their practice? Because I think that again, their mindset is yes, yes, yes. But then there’s not a time or I’m not sure how to do that, or I’m feel awkward about it, or we got to get to business and not check in or you know.
Stefanie Johnson 9:12
There’s a million right, like a laundry list of things. But some of the ones that rise to the top are things like hiring and cultural fit. So you hire people who fit your culture, and then you reinforce that fit all the time because you want to build a tight-knit group, right? If you put everyone in T-shirts, they’re wearing the same outfits, and you do the same type of cultural events that everyone likes. And that’s great, except you’re missing out on a large segment of the population that you could be recruiting. And you’ve created massive blind spots on your team because everyone’s similar and even more to the point. There’s probably someone on that team who isn’t similar but made it through somehow, and every day feels like they don’t actually belong. So I think it’s like yes, you can have a strong culture, but part of that culture has to be valued differently. If you’re a leader who’s who doesn’t value difference, that’s the thing to start focusing on, and then getting some empathy skills because you’re gonna have to learn how to integrate differences and have perspective-taking of like, well, this is what your experience is like, it’s different than mine. You don’t have to do that for one thing is you, right? You’re just like, I know what your experience is, I hired you, you have the same college education background.
Sue Bethanis 10:26
Right, I’m thinking right now about a client, great guy, well-intended, very fast-paced company had an engineering opening. And so he was going through the motions of getting the engineering people, you know, his recruiter is going out there and, and I said to him, how many women candidates you have, I wasn’t being snarky, I was like, “how’s it going?” You know, he’s like, he just sort of stopped cold like, oh, my God, he just didn’t think of it. And you know, the fact is, there’s not that many. It’s hard to find that. But it takes an extra couple steps or three or four or five steps to find women engineers, but he hired one and it all worked out. But it’s because this is one of many people that he’s hiring. But what I’m curious from you is, you know, how do we take, we can take the recruiting sample, or we can also just take check-ins like how do we get people to feel the differences like despite merely asking and check and like something like, hey, say something about you, that makes you feel very creative? Like your what’s creative about you? Or what’s different about you? Or that nobody else knows something like that? I mean, there are so many different questions we can ask. And then you’ll find out things about people that you just actually have no idea. So what are some other ideas?
Stefanie Johnson 11:28
Yeah, I have a deck of cards on my website at drstefjohnson.com under resources, there are just these various decks, you can download them they’re free. And they just have these questions, just like you just asked us. I think my favorite right now is returning to work after COVID. And there is this my favorite is because it gives you a reason why you’re doing this, but this is new territory. And the fact that I don’t know how you experienced a global pandemic, I don’t, because it’s never happened before. So you just have to ask. And so it opens the door to having a conversation about how has your work experience been amidst this pandemic? What are things from this experience that you would want to bring back to the right place in terms of changes to the work format, you know, affecting your career aspirations? Whatever it is, there are a bunch of parts.
Sue Bethanis 12:16
Yeah, lots of questions asked around that for sure. So let’s get actually get into that because I do want to do a little application. See, my view on this is that a lot of us are, not necessarily you and me, but just generally we as a people are waiting around a lot, and were waiting to go back to the office, we’re waiting for COVID to subside. You know, there’s a lot of waiting. And in the meantime, this whole time, because you know, we’re gonna go back to the office in three weeks then it wasn’t me three months, and we just keep putting off and it really, we were really, really sure about July, the people, the tech folks I know we’re like okay, July is it, July 1, you know, kids are out of school. And you know, summers here, we’re coming back. Obviously, definitely happy. I mean, now companies are pushing out to, you know, January 22. Course, it’d be flu season, and then you know, we’ll have like season two, but, you know, anyway, they just keep pushing off. But meanwhile, there’s not been a lot of skill-building necessarily with how we are doing now. Because we keep waiting for this time, we can all about the office, at least go back like two or three days a week. So I don’t know anyone that’s going back five, right? So how do we there’s two questions I have that are related. How do we help people be more skillful about being online, whether it’s on the phone or online or on zoom in terms of their inclusivity? And then also, as these are really separate questions, but really, as we’re going back when we do go back, and there’s some people that are back, what are some things that are particular about that, that we want to make sure that we’re doing to again, be good inclusifiers? I’m gonna use that a lot.
Stefanie Johnson 13:46
Yeah I love it. So I would say read Erica Dhawan’s book on digital body language that came out this year. A lot of skill building tips for just communicating online, your virtual presence, I think that’s helpful for anyone. I think people are investing at this point in becoming better communicators online, because we waited for a long time. And now like the cats out of the bag, we’re not going back so full time, you know, so we might as well get good at this. And there’s new technologies emerging, you know, definitely communication technologies. I feel like my Zoom and WebEx and Teams is like constantly updating with new accessibility options, so it transcribes what I’m saying. So people who can’t hear as well can easily read it. So I think there is an investment in that. I feel like the one thing that should stick around is when it comes to workplace decision making. We have you know, we’re having a meeting on a task. This isn’t bonding, we’re not getting coffee, but we’re trying to make decisions. I think there’s with virtual, there’s essentially always been and now always will be some people who aren’t in the room, right? Like I just was on session earlier today.
Sue Bethanis 14:58
It’s hard to have, even with a new thing, so hard to everybody in the room ever, all the time.
Stefanie Johnson 15:03
Yeah. And there’s people who are like, you know, FYI, I’ve been in Singapore for the last decade. And no one’s ever cared that I was staying here. We said, and you know, he’s on the phone going, “Excuse me. Can you hear me?” So now we know this is going to be happening. So I will follow you know, what I’ve heard for, like Sun Microsystems, and Oracle now has has always had these remote teams and globally dispersed teams. And so they have taken meetings, like, even if you and I are sitting in our office together in California, but one of our team members has to work remotely say for whatever reason, we just take the meeting separately, i’ll be in my office, you’re in your office, right?
Sue Bethanis 15:44
And everybody’s equal. Everyone has equitable situation. Yeah.
Stefanie Johnson 15:47
You got it, and you don’t have to wear masks, right? Because you’re not two people in a room. And, and there’s basically so many ways, but to me, this is more equitable than all of the things that we’ve experienced in meeting rooms, the person with the loudest voice is heard, the person who takes up the most space is the person who sits behind a table, like let’s face it, we’re six, nine little boxes on screen, right? So it’s a lot of ways it creates greater equity. And if I want to chime in, but I don’t feel like I have a voice, I can just add it in the chat. But there’s multiple lines of communication going, I think it was always better, we just didn’t know it. Right? So if you believe that so far, then it’s like, Okay, so then how can you really use this format to be effective, and I use this kind of multi step process. The experience is different. And so we want to start with sending out questions to people in advance so that they can respond and actually want them to send me their responses, I’m going to curate a discussion around their responses. And when we get into the room, I’m going to make sure I check in with each person, you know, everyone contribute we can I do popcorn, but you know, I might say, this is how I’m doing Sue, I’m gonna call on you. So you can call on Judy, Judy, you can choose let each person call on someone, and then you dive into your curated session on the topics and really focus on you know, we start with the stuff there’s a lot of agreement on like, okay, we all agreed that we should expand operations into Venezuela. So now rather than listening to 20 minutes of we have an agreement on that topic. “Oh, I agree, because this reasons” and people will continue to share. And they don’t know that everyone already agrees with them. You started out with the “Everyone agreed on this. Here’s some reasons. Now tell me why you disagree.”
Sue Bethanis 17:24
Right or is anybody on this particular topic that may have an issue with it? Just you make the assumption that people are in agreement. So then but you give people room to disagree with. Because I think that that’s if we say is everybody in agreement is it’s harder to say no. Whereas you say is ‘Does anybody have a disagreement with this?” you’re opening it up so that people can disagree if they if they want to.
Stefanie Johnson 17:48
Yeah, let’s demand it. Now. I want to hear the reason why. And it’s whether you’re making it up to be devil’s advocate, or whether you really believe that, but just didn’t get a chance.
Sue Bethanis 17:57
Yeah.
Stefanie Johnson 17:59
And then one of the things where you disagree, right, and you just save tons of time, because, right, exactly, I spent all the time vehemently agreeing. When you set the norms about we want disagreement, this is good. And then you can make decisions. And I’ll say like another thing that I love about the zoom format, and I encourage leaders to do this all the time, maybe tell your coaching clients this too. I have them tape meetings. Everyone knows you’re taping it, right? Because you tell everyone, and then go back and watch it and look at what are you doing that’s allowing people to contribute? Who’s getting spoken over, who’s, you know, raising their hand all the time? And whatever it might be, like use the features that because it’s recorded, you can go back and watch it. That’s a great feature. And then you can use the chat, the chats like another great feature to say, you know, I actually know this is a topic that soon would be great to speak to I’m not sure why you’re not speaking and I don’t want to embarrass you, but I can direct message you. Isn’t that amazing? Right? Right on or even if I’m like, I’m going to say something, I want you to back me up or back me up, if you agree. With there’s all this opportunity for covert communication to run and you can use it for evil but I’m saying using it for good.
Sue Bethanis 19:10
Exactly. Right, inclusion. Exactly. So this is great. I want to stop for a second, give people a chance to speak, speaking of. And so you’re welcome to basically go on video, which will mean that you’re raising your hand and you can speak and ask somebody a question, and we can have another, certainly have a discussion about it after this, we’re going to go into assuming that we are doing what you’re saying, which I happen to agree with as well, where we’re getting most of our viewers will be on zoom. How do we connect off of zoom when we’re either virtual or at the office? Yeah. So we’ll talk about that in a second. But um, who has a question or a comment so far? Okay. So can you please talk about how to effectively manage up to support more inclusive practices among supervisors leaders of above you on the org chart? That’s a great question.
Unknown Speaker 19:56
Yeah. I to expand on that question a little bit. We are doing at my organization, we’re doing some kind of reorganization and rethinking about how decisions get made and trying to move towards a structure where there’s not just one like executive or leadership team making all of the decisions, but having there be kind of multiple area focuses of teams that make decisions in those areas. But it is challenging for the staff who are coming into the decision making structure, I think, to encourage more inclusive practices among those who have been above them on the org chart, even though those people at the top do want to be more inclusive. It’s like nobody knows how. So It would be great if you could speak to that a little bit.
Stefanie Johnson 20:47
Absolutely. Thank you for your clarification on that. And a broader context, we’ll send them all Inclusify books, of course. We’ll immediately solve your problems. I guess I think two things one, some of it’s just role modeling. And there’s the thing that happens is, you know, become more senior in your role, more people are coming to you for answers. So you become less good at asking questions. So sometimes it’s just like needing to practice that muscle again, because people before they became that senior role, they were one of the people asking questions, right? So it’s not that they can’t do it, they just need to practice, warm it up again. So by doing that, as yourself, if you’re not one of the senior people, you’re talking about that if you’re in the room, you can role model the behaviors. And it’s like, if you see someone speaking another person or not letting them finish, you can say, you know, I really wanted to hear that person finish their thought, can you pause on your thought, and we can finish hearing them speak, because what they’re saying is really important. Or if you have you haven’t heard from some of the room, you can raise that and say, you know, we really haven’t heard from Kaylee today. And what she has to say is really important, because she’s been leading up for years. And so I think her perspectives really valuable. And then when you start doing that, what I found is it totally touches on the other people start doing it, too. If you want to go Obama White House style, you can actually form like an agreement to do this, like they call it amplification. And the Obama staffers made this pact to do that for each other to try to bring out people’s opinions and support each other. So you could do that. But even if you didn’t, it just starts to catch on. And then it’s hard for the supervisor not to do it when everyone else is kind of doing it. Okay, if that’s like too small of a, you know, behavioral nudge for you, then I think the next best thing is to form a collaboration with maybe a couple other people on your team and go to the supervisor with these very specific suggestions. Like, Hey, I have this great knowledge and training and skills around creating inclusive work environment, can I lead a team meeting? Can we three organize a different way of approaching this next meeting to get more voices on the table? And actually do it, like assert your leadership and demonstrate teaching upward teaching at the same time?
Sue Bethanis 23:07
Okay. So in your book, you talk about these great concepts we always want to stand out and to fit in? I mean, I think that those are, they can be diametrically opposed. But hopefully they’re not I think you’ve done a good job of kind of molding, those or blending those together. So can you speak to that, and how we can blend those and also a minute, and I want to then apply it to what we’re going through right now.
Stefanie Johnson 23:30
Yeah absolutely. It’s just this idea, it’s, there’s a theory of optimal distinctiveness, it is the idea that we want to be distinct. Like, this isn’t true for all animals. But it is true for humans, right? We don’t want to be the same as everyone else. We want to have our own stripes or be our unique selves. And our identities are important to us.
Sue Bethanis 23:51
Yeah, brains are saying we want to stand out. Yeah.
Stefanie Johnson 23:54
Exactly. So you want to be distinct, but only to an optimal level. Because you don’t want to stand out so much that you’re not accepted into the pack, because as much as you want to stand out, like we really want to be accepted. That need to belonging is like a basic human need. We are a social animal, we want to be part of the group. So it’s a tough, it seems like a tough balance, and you want to do both. But on the flip side, it’s actually really natural, if you can just start from the place of valuing these distinct people, and the fact that people are bringing different skills and rather than falling into the trap of saying, you know, we want clones, everyone to be the same. Recognizing that everyone’s the same, we’re probably missing out on a lot of information. Instead, take the perspective of like, we’re trying to build the best team, like if you’re trying to build a sports team, I’m going to use a sports analogy, a fairly good football team. You don’t bring on all quarterbacks, right? There’s different roles that need to be filled in different attributes that people need to have. And so when you’re putting together the best team, it’s really not about figuring out who’s the best person for the job and then replicating them 5 times is about figuring out what person is going to add the most to our current makeup of our team.
Sue Bethanis 25:06
Right? Well, and if you also extend that even further is not even us positions, but you awaked a pre Madonna, like there’s sports teams, supposedly basketball, there’s typically a pre Madonna, that stands out, okay? And it’s okay to have a few of them. You have more than a couple, then it’s a problem. And if you have also a team that has pretty much people that are like, if you take the Giants, for example, people who have a team, it’s it’s very, very even. Like, there’s not like the obvious job, the one that’s getting paid a ton, you know, then you have even more of a situation where fitting in is is more important, and is part of the main reason why they’ve been so successful. But there is a balance, because you can’t be you can’t have too much, you have to have some ego, right? Some, some distinction, right? How do you suggest that people strike this balance? How do you do that on zoom? And then how you do that off of zoom? So like, there’s ways to connect, and to do these things to stand out and to fit in? So the connecting is more of the fitting in, but the being distinct is more of the standing out? How do you do these things? On zoom? And then how do you do these things off?
Stefanie Johnson 26:19
Yeah, so in in zoom world, you know, I think it is about really valuing the different perspectives that people bring. And so that is like trying to create dissension trying to ask, demand, I want a different perspective right now, and creating a psychologically safe environment where people can say an idea, maybe off the wall or not your typical idea, but it’s valued. And people who humiliate people or punish them for their idea, then you’re never going to get a creative idea again. So making sure that it’s when I say you value it, you really value it , what you’re trying to get the ideas out there, and then you’re thankful for people sharing, even if you don’t go with that idea. Like maybe it changes the way you thought about something. Or maybe it comes back in later. And so valuing that, and maybe this isn’t what you mean. But the other off zoom, maybe the thing that comes to mind for me is that there’s still a need for like the human connection, as you mentioned earlier, and so we need to still be finding ways to bond, maybe it’s, it really can’t be face to face, I’ve seen people doing book clubs, like anti racist book clubs. So it has the value of difference woven into the fact that you’re about to take a shared experience. And you can do, it doesn’t have to be an anti racist book club. It could be, you know, you watch movies, or reading romance novels or whatever, whatever. Maybe not romance novels, but whatever you want to build connection with your team members, a lot of organizations before COVID, were investing in cultural events, you know, there’s ways to do that. Outside of COVID, to like, you can have groups each week share something about themselves, or individuals, things that you don’t know about them. So you can learn about people. It’s like super fascinating. We love to learn about humans. And then you’re starting to make people feel connected for their difference. Isn’t that like, that’s the magic?
Sue Bethanis 28:13
Yes, they’re embracing difference as something interesting and curious. Yeah. So let’s talk about what you just said. I think I think it’s a really important point, I have an example of a client who’s in DC, her team currently has, but she’s always had a remote team. So COVID has not made that much of difference. But she also has people in DC as well. So she was noticing that her, she went to a new team, this is a huge company. So she went to a new team, she was noticing that nobody is in DC. So she was gonna actually hire her next couple hires, we’re gonna be in DC, because she was like, you know what, we can meet outside and we can have park walk or a Starbucks gathering or whatever. So I think I’d rather just to be able to do that. But yeah, so I was really much encouraging her to do that. If Zoom is all you have then they’re are ways to linger and they’re are ways to connect that aren’t work that I think that beyond the let’s have a party on zoom or let’s have a game night or something like that. I’m just talking about having a walk and actually calling somebody on the phone and not on zoom. So you’re connecting with them in slack or on phone or whatever. Or you’re doing that after that right after the meeting or whatever. So I think that there’s those things but I also think that there’s things we can do that are creative that allow us to be together. I mean, we don’t we could still be outside and be safe. So what is your what’s your thinking? Thinking about that?
Stefanie Johnson 29:37
Yeah I mean, I love your idea that I’ve been sitting outside, I had a class meet we all got picnic blankets, and so we were still distanced because your picnic blankets big and had lunch together. We used our phones to communicate and post lil videos on, I think it’s Instagram, just like I didn’t even have an Instagram at this point. Just to connect, like even though you’re not this close to someone like you can still feel really connected because you’re having a shared experience. I think it’s just like what you said you gotta get it, we’re gonna need to be creative because I think this is gonna last for a while and in some ways, it’s, you know, maybe it’s for the better when it comes to equity because there’s always been people off at social events together where others aren’t involved. You know, it’s like the bad end is like strip clubs. And like, I’m not making this up. Like this is a thing that happens in corporate America, the golf course, it’s like playing a game of pickup basketball, those were not inclusive events. Right?
Sue Bethanis 30:46
They can be, but not the strip club. But I mean, the can be in golf and they can be, you can go to the public parks.
Stefanie Johnson 30:54
Yes, maybe it’s not, if that’s all you do, but it’s not inclusive. So I think in some ways, this has given us a good opportunity to be creative about new ways to build connection. And so I like the book club, you can stream Netflix together, like have it the exact same time. Even though you’re a part in being creative about finding ways to do things, virtually, I think if you’ve always keep that lens of equity and inclusion, and keep it afloat, who’s showing up and who’s not, these people never show up for our seven o’clock pm meeting, maybe there’s a reason for that, you know, like, maybe that’s really late, or maybe they have their parents and they have young children they’re putting to bed at seven o’clock. So just like being mindful of those things. Because it’s like, I felt like when the when the workplace is built, you know, in the industrial revolution, it was built for a very specific demographic, it wasn’t built to be inclusive, right. And the vast majority of the workforce were men, and they had stay at home partners. And it wasn’t designed to be a place where anyone could be equally successful. So seriously we get to rebuild it. Because it’s gone.
Sue Bethanis 32:02
No I agree. I mean, I think that we’re in this for a while and we can refresh it. I mean, we don’t have to do what we were doing. Like we can make this completely different.
Stefanie Johnson 32:09
It can be better and it can be a workplace that really works for everyone. And I think that includes things like the social events like maybe it’s fewer happy hours and more outdoor coffee hours and walks. I live in Boulder Colorado, so outdoor walks are like, you know, a daily main stay that people are always doing this. Thats not true everywhere.
Sue Bethanis 32:28
Well its true here its true there. I mean, obviously the dead of winter Chicago and Minnesota can’t do that. You know, yeah. It’s a little maybe more creative about, I think that I was talking to somebody and there’s a guy, but the be meeting in the garage, you know, was getting still too cold. So the garage door open, you’re outside, but it was still too cold. So yeah, I think you have to get really creative and if there’s some things you can share from your, you said that you’ve got some cards online, got some things online that you might be able to share, you’ve got an Inclusify leadership matrix, maybe you can share that too.
Stefanie Johnson 33:09
Yeah, for sure. So all of that is the matrix is on Inclusifier.com And that the assessments of where your kind of leadership strengths are and how do you become more inclusive, like capitalize on your strengths, but pivot on things that are areas opportunity for you. And then there’s just lots of resources, inclusive hiring guide, how to make workplaces work for parents, conferences that are more inclusive, I mean, there’s just a lot, a lot of different resources that people can use. And, but the best thing I would say to do is actually to create a group, a task force, or whatever it is to start solving these ideas for yourself, because just doing that is building connection. And like, I don’t know, the best way to come up with social events for your group, because I don’t really know you, but you know you, and you’re going to have the most creative ideas because you have all these different perspectives sitting there, and they’re going to be ideas that work for you.
Sue Bethanis 34:05
Well, I think that not trying to be, as a leader not trying to be, you know, the, the end all you can ask your team. No, that’s to say, okay, so that they want to get together, you know, next time, next Friday and for an hour and what are some ideas about what we could do, right?
Stefanie Johnson 34:24
Or even maybe so we have eight people on our team. We’re going to do something each biweekly or something every two weeks, each week. Someone different gets to play. Yeah. That’s a great idea. It just was created and that is when ideas that people would come up with.
Sue Bethanis 34:43
Yeah I’ve got a group that I started two groups, I started during COVID and one of them is a coaching group. So we always have an article, so we always have some content that we read each time. And then another group that I have I started was with my best friends, and we started every Monday and so it started out me having a question. You know, it could be anything like, ‘what’s the silver lining of COVID?’ And ‘what are you doing to exercise?’ and you know, those kinds of questions. And now we’re I mean, every other week, and now everybody comes with a question like, in other words, you have your night, and you come with a question. And so everyone’s got to facilitate over and over, you know, and it’s been great because people come up with the darndest questions. And you know, really interesting questions around like this, where do you want to go? The place you wanted to always go to? You never been able to. And earlier I did, would you rather and that was fun, because it was a series of questions. But the last question I’m gonna leave you guys with which is would you rather end hatred or hunger? Yeah. tough one, huh? But, but there’s no right answer. Obviously, this is the kind of thing that I think supported, like getting creative about just curiosity, like, because we found out a lot about each other when we ask that kind of question. Hugely.
Stefanie Johnson 35:58
Yeah these aren’t like yes or no question, though. They’re getting people to open up and talk and that’s building that empathy and connection. Like, there’s certain things that you get from a face to face. It’s like people’s, I don’t know what it is, their aura, just like the way they show their energy. So you don’t get that on zoom. But you so you have to be intentional about going deep.
Sue Bethanis 36:22
Yeah. Because you’re not necessarily it’s not going to be offered. You know, you have to you have to go the extra. It’s all this takes extra energy. And I think that’s the key.
Stefanie Johnson 36:34
I think you felt so energized after that conversation. So it took energy, but I bet afterwards, you’re like dang.
Sue Bethanis 36:41
Yeah, well, it’s so much. I mean, so yeah, it’s like every time is different, right? So it makes it interesting. But yeah, it’s Well, yes, kind of and that will actually you know what, interestingly enough, I do feel energy. And then when I feel sad, I kind of feel sad sometimes afterwards, because I wanted to keep going. Yeah, this little sense of sadness. Yeah. So that’s, that’s also that’s also they’re
Stefanie Johnson 36:59
That’s what keeps you coming back for more.
Sue Bethanis 37:00
Yeah, yeah. Fortunately, now we’re all you know, now we’re able to see each other more, so it’s easier. But that was the beginning. It’s like it felt like we’re in a dungeon, right? Like, ugh, cant see each other.
Stefanie Johnson 37:11
Yes, my home base, my home office, became the basement. Because it was quiet. It’s like yes, far enough away from the kids if they weren’t on every phone call, just like in the background. And I really did feel like I was sent to the dungeon for a year and three months. Yeah, exactly. We’re coming up.
Sue Bethanis 37:31
Yeah, we’re, it’s certainly better now. And you feel but we still have a little bit more to go here. So thank you so much for connecting. And just, you know, just having a wonderful conversation, I’m just going to talk a little bit about your book again here. So you can go to Stephanie’s websites, www.drstefjohnson.com And you can also go to Inclusifybook.com on Instagram, and Twitter is Dr. Stef Johnson. And then, of course, on LinkedIn as well. So again, the book is Inclusify: The Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams. And you can get that, of course, on Amazon and other places. So I just want to really, again, appreciate your candor and your energy, I do appreciate it a lot. And there’s a lot of good ideas. A lot more good ideas on the website, as well. So when I encourage everybody to do that, and next month, on September 28, at 12pm Pacific, we’ve got my my brother, he’s my, my consulting brother, he’s the guy who, we commiserate a lot. Steve Cadigan he’s the author of a new book called WorkQuake: Embracing the Aftershocks of COVID-19 To Create a Better Model of Working, he was able to pivot and actually write the book during COVID. And it’s about the future of work. And I just want to encourage everybody to come on and listen to what Steve has to say. And if anything else, it’ll be funny because he and I are, as I said, brother and sisters. We have fun together. So again, Stephanie, thank you so much. Appreciate you.
Stefanie Johnson 39:12
Thank you for energizing conversation on this kind of mute day and just for your kind introduction and your great questions. And for those who showed up and those who watch Yeah.
Sue Bethanis 39:23
Thanks everybody for being here. Appreciate it.